What qualifies as "dark"?

[Ten]

Don't just quote me a line from a dictionary here, you guys.


So on occasion -- or, now that I think about it, quite often -- I see people saying things like "I'm looking for a dark modern fantasy role play," or "I'm craving something twisted and dark," or "Have any book recommendations? Preferably something dark," or the like. Has anyone noticed the incredible vagueness of this?

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with the requests in and of themselves, but it's unclear what these people are looking for. Do you want a story about torture? Rape? Dead babies? Post-traumatic stress? Maybe it's all of those things together, but I think people would do better to clarify, as I have a hunch that not everyone means the same thing when they say "dark".

When I see the word, what comes to mind is something with hardship and deaths and tough choices in an ever-worsening situation, where forbidden hate (you read that right; forbidden hate) is prevalent. That's just my take on it. For other people, it seems to be things like hopeless cases and evil insane asylums and sad death scenes and wallowing in angst. And then for some people anything involving any kind of real conflict is dark.

Anyway, when people use the adjective, I'm never sure what they mean. It seems like the word is overused. Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there should be less dark fiction (or dark role playing) but I do suspect that there is more stuff that gets called dark than there is... actual darkness. In fictionland, that is. Don't even bring up the real world.

Also, the label can pop up whenever the morality scale introduces any shade of "gray". I think I'm getting into a whole different topic with this, but "gray" morality is a term that gets overused too, seeing as Erin Hunter thinks she's writing shades of gray with her characters. Her self-centered heroes would be the villains in my book. If the Author's Pet and designated good guy does something wrong, that's not gray, that's plain old wrong, and him supposedly being "good" doesn't change anything about that. It's like you're supposed to show moral favoritism toward the characters that the author wants you to like. No. That's not going to fly with me.

Anyway, sorry about the mini rant. That was off-topic... or is it? Maybe they're interconnected ideas. Or maybe "gray" morality is just a subcategory of "darkness". I don't even know anymore. I think this decade has set out to confuse me with its vague ideology.

[Cloud]

Hmmm. Being fairly naive as I am, this is hard to me to answer, but I'll give it a shot.

I think there are variations of dark - from the mildly dark to the truly dark. What exactly the dividing line is is hard to define - but I'd say drug abuse and rape is darker than say, just murdering someone. Of course, that raises the question of are certain people worse to murder than others. I think not, but in a lot of books the old, young, weak, and sometimes innocent are said to be "worse" to kill than a murderer.

Forbidden hate...that can be pretty dark in the right circumstances.

For example, I do think The Hunger Games was somewhat dark, but not as dark as that book you described, Little Bee. Yes, it was cruel and had a lot of killing, but there were some topics that it didn't even remotely breach that are very dark.

I don't think "gray" is a subcategory of "darkness". Gray is just a word for everything that's not plainly one thing or the other - and even then you could debate what's purely "good" or "evil."

[Rolo]

I agree that 'Dark' is such an umbrella term these days that it's almost lost all meaning. At the moment, it seems that the media and publishing/film companies have got 'wind' of the 'fact' that people want 'Dark and gritty' fiction. Unfortunately, this means the term is used to describe anything that makes you vaguely uncomfortable.

I think the differentiation that needs to be made is 'Dark material' and 'Dark effect'. Dark material is, implicitly, gloomy, challenging and depressing, but it may be presented in a way which does not make it seem overtly so. We could put Warriors in this category, because... well, I'm not sure many over the age of 13 would find Warriors depressing or challenging, because the gore and emotional impact is only crudely described. Hunger Games (first book only) could also be put on this list, because, although the emotional impact is communicated effectively at points, it isn't presented in a terrifying way and it ends moderately positively.

On the other hand, there are books with dark effect, and these are the ones that make you wince. Ever seen The Plague Dogs? That could only be described as dark, because the whole thing is tragic and it dwells on these dark themes constantly. I'm trying to think of another example. I shall do so after dinner.

I'll talk about shades of grey after dinner.

[Ten]

Jul 22, 2011 14:27:45 GMT -5 Cloud said:

I think there are variations of dark - from the mildly dark to the truly dark. What exactly the dividing line is is hard to define - but I'd say drug abuse and rape is darker than say, just murdering someone. Of course, that raises the question of are certain people worse to murder than others. I think not, but in a lot of books the old, young, weak, and sometimes innocent are said to be "worse" to kill than a murderer.

Yeah, that comes up a lot. I've never been sold on the idea that killing the bad guy will solve all your problems, but people do like the simplicity of it.


"Forbidden hate...that can be pretty dark in the right circumstances."
--
hmm. You think so? I was just imagining, like, people who are supposed to be partners and get along and work together and like each other, but don't, despite how much they really need to.

And I'm not talking about teh-ebilz arranged marriages here. That's a subject that, while valid, I think I've seen enough times for me to be tired of it in terms of entertainment value.

I mean more like... protectors-of-the-innocent and such who have to team up and rely on each other's strengths in order to accomplish their individual goals, but it's a constant struggle because they hate each other.


"For example, I do think The Hunger Games was somewhat dark, but not as dark as that book you described, Little Bee. Yes, it was cruel and had a lot of killing, but there were some topics that it didn't even remotely breach that are very dark."
--
It seemed like it was... trying to be dark. It was sad, and there was war and death and mayhem, but overall it just didn't feel dark to me, despite the subject matter. Perhaps I need to amend my definition.


"I don't think 'gray' is a subcategory of 'darkness'. Gray is just a word for everything that's not plainly one thing or the other - and even then you could debate what's purely 'good' or 'evil'"
--
I just meant how a work that's confused about its own morality can get called dark. For example, there were some episodes of "Angel" where the main character got all depressed and stopped being the noble hero he was supposed to be, leading his actions to not be so pearly white. He wasn't actually helping out the Bad Guys, but he wasn't exercising upstanding morality either, so some would call that episode "dark" for his descent into "gray" morality.

Mostly, I would just call that him being immoral and stupid, regardless of what supposed alignment he is. I didn't really think of the scenes as dark, either, save for the dark lighting (oxymoron?). Also, I can't remember what my point here was going to be.

Jul 22, 2011 14:35:50 GMT -5 Rolo said:

I agree that 'Dark' is such an umbrella term these days that it's almost lost all meaning. At the moment, it seems that the media and publishing/film companies have got 'wind' of the 'fact' that people want 'Dark and gritty' fiction. Unfortunately, this means the term is used to describe anything that makes you vaguely uncomfortable.

True.


"I think the differentiation that needs to be made is 'Dark material' and 'Dark effect'. Dark material is, implicitly, gloomy, challenging and depressing, but it may be presented in a way which does not make it seem overtly so. We could put Warriors in this category, because... well, I'm not sure many over the age of 13 would find Warriors depressing or challenging, because the gore and emotional impact is only crudely described. Hunger Games (first book only) could also be put on this list, because, although the emotional impact is communicated effectively at points, it isn't presented in a terrifying way and it ends moderately positively."
--
I agree with this too.

With Warriors, a lot of kids are like "These books are really dark! Anyone can die! It's so not for kids." ...And I'm like, yeah it is. The writing style and the storytelling is not mature at all. All the conflicts are simplistic and dumbed-down for children. It's clearly aimed for the tween bracket. Also, just because characters die doesn't mean it's not for kids. Bambi's mom died, after all, and in the grand scheme of things, this notion of the innocence of childhood is newer than they think. Children used to be viewed as just younger adults, until recently (child labor laws, anyone?), and it was like... they were more inept and inexperienced, yes, but there wasn't this notion that they couldn't handle the idea of violence/death/anything less than skip-in-the-flower-field happiness. None of this, "No, Johnny, don't touch the sharp objects." It was more like, "Johnny, take this ax and chop some firewood so that we don't freeze to death."

Whereas nowadays, adults sue those little merry-go-round things off all the playgrounds in the country because they're too dangerous for kids. I've only ever seen one of these irl when I was in Mexico. I won't say a poor part of Mexico, since it wasn't too bad, but... they did have bigger concerns than falling off a playground toy.


"On the other hand, there are books with dark effect, and these are the ones that make you wince. Ever seen The Plague Dogs?"
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No, I haven't.

Wince in a good(-ish?) way, I hope you mean. There are some books that make me wince just because of insipid narration. COUGH Seeing COUGHCOUGH That's very different from books that are, by intention, disturbing in effect.