the holy city, and people and places.

[Cloud]

"It doesn't matter if physics existed. What kind of wussy god wouldn't be able to control matter of his exclusive creation?"

Ya got me there. ;P

"Lay it on me."

I would if it were solid and...lay...able. I hope it wouldn't squish you.

Anyways. Erm. -digs around- Well for starters there's the genetic stuff...for example how we're almost exactly the same as chimps. Funnily enough, the more I think about this the more thoughts like: "well maybe other creatures evolved but we didn't" "wait that doesn't make sense" "Why doesn't it? humans are..different...ish?" "you don't sound confident. "" shut up, figments. you don't exist." "OR DO WE?" "Neh. -mentally throws a clump of dirt at non-existing figments-"

-cough-

“So. A few things.

The creation stories are old (even older than I am! ...yeah I'm to young to be making those jokes). So they've had... what... a few millennia to get a little screwy? Still, I gotta believe that somehow a little bit of the real story is at the core of it all, and details aren't a big deal to me (I know others don't feel the same). About dinos -- simple; the folks writing those stories down didn't know about dinos and just left them out (can you blame them? Humans never saw real dinos).

To be technical, the theory of evolution (the main/actual/original one) doesn't say "and then humans evolved from other primates". It just says that species adapt over time. It's more than feasible for God to have created a fish and then for that fish to have evolved. And evolution says where changes in features come from, but it doesn't say how life originated, so they mesh well in those regards.”

I’d like to present a quote I found in a book I recently read called The Art of Racing in the Rain.

“However, I don’t understand why people insist on pitting the concepts of evolution and creation against each other. Why can’t they see that science and spiritualism are one? That bodies evolve and souls evolve and the universe is a fluid place that marries them both in a wonderful package called a human being.”

It’s made me wonder a bit more, I admit.

“From dust you were created, and into dust you shall return.
I love it when church is morbid. ”

xD

“I do try to be cautious about taking anything as a sign. I don't want to pull a Goosefeather (seriously, that'd be moronic). However, when those little things come along, I like to thank God because, even when it's natural course of events, He set those events in motion.”

Haha, pull a Goosefeather. That’s a great saying. If it were anyone else I was talking to, this is usually the part where I used to go “So what? The natural course of events includes a lot of really horrible things too that he supposedly set in motion, and I don’t think anyone’s thanking him for those.”
Buuuuut luckily I’m (slightly) more intelligent now and think instead, “Those are people’s faults, not God’s.”
And my ever-so-helpful figments answer “because he’s just so loving and lets these things happen.”
Shut up, figments. >|

“Extremists shoot first and verify your views after. I recommend a bulletproof vest.”

xD Good idea.

“Yes and no. I probably chatter on Starless more than I do in real life, and I do all my role playing here, so y'all are important to me. As far as theology goes, yeah, we're not near each other, but I'm so far off from most people anyway that it's not strange to me and by comparison it's not much more of a distance.”

Awww. That must be lonely sometimes.

“I know what you mean. It's still an integral part of you, kind of like equestrian endurance rides and Christmas parties with loud, drunk adults are for me.”

….I don’t wanna know.

“What if, while painting up reality, He chose not to include unimaginable, even worse things?
But yeah that's one of those tough questions that people are always asking after every war, hurricane, and miscarriage.”

You do have a point. Although, frankly I don’t think miscarriages are that sad. Hurricanes and wars, definitely. Miscarriages…eh. Disappointing, maybe, but not OHNOES THE WORLD IS ENDING. But maybe I’m just cold-blooded and mean that way. XP

My own answers to it vary.

“He was probably making someone else happy”

“Maybe it doesn’t matter because the world has been made too sucky by people anyway”

“Punishment?”

“You know what, I don’t even care if it was God or not. I just wish things like that never happened. Because yes humans fail, but they don’t deserve thing that horrible, it just causes more problems.”

Uhm.

“Because He loves us, Cloud.
Crap. Watery eyes are back. -beats away with a hammer- >
Anyway, remember how we were talking about Christian music on skype? I feel guilty saying that the ones I don't care for tend to be the ones that are just keep saying, in essence, "I love God! A lot!" The songs that are the most powerful for me are the ones that are the most beautiful in describing how He loves us, because that makes me want to love Him back. Yeah, humans fail. That's why it's so epic that anyone, much less a god, would love them.”

This is the part where I usually go “Riiiiiight.”

But here I go, “Gah, I just find it hard to believe because humans suck so much. Id I were God, I’d love the world, but hate humans and figure out how to get rid of them once and for all, but subtly and still give them a sparing chance to save themselves.
Come to think of it, maybe that’s why he hasn’t stopped global warming.”

“hm. Well, it's pretty hard to be as good as God. I'm thinking it's not so much a lack of skill on His part as it is the result of us having free will. If everyone always made the right choices, that wouldn't really be free will since that's more or less the same as being programmed to always make the right choices -- and yet, some of us loving Him back wouldn't mean anything to Him if we didn't have free will.”

You have a point. Still. Not sure it’s worth that for all the horrible things that happen to people, especially in the so-called Holy Land. And why? Fights about God, half of them, the irony of which is just sickening.

“And I love talking to you.
You actually listen to me.

...and it's funny that you call me calm. x) I often spazz or do what my sister calls "exploding".”

D’aww. I would ask who wouldn’t listen to you, but unfortunately I know the answer(s) to that question too well. ._________. As for the exploding bit, I find that hard to believe. Spazzing Ten for me is like disgusting fresh homemade lemon cheesecake, a.k.a, it doesn’t exist.

[Ten]

Jun 2, 2010 10:39:59 GMT -5 Cloud said:

Anyways. Erm. -digs around- Well for starters there's the genetic stuff...for example how we're almost exactly the same as chimps.

mmhm. And humans all have... what, something like 99% similar DNA? And yet we're all pretty different.

...I'm remembering this from almost a year ago when I read a lesbian's "This I Believe" essay about focusing on our similarities instead of our differences, so no precise citations here, sorry. I can probably find the exact statistic with a source if you want.

Also! I was watching this Nova thing about hobbits on PBS the other night. They (the super pro-human-evolution-from-other-primates scientists and all) kept outright stating that the whole story of our evolution from homo erectus (or whatever it's called) has a lot of big gaps in it right now. Dunno if that means anything to you.

Funnily enough, the more I think about this the more thoughts like: "well maybe other creatures evolved but we didn't" "wait that doesn't make sense" "Why doesn't it? humans are..different...ish?" "you don't sound confident. "" shut up, figments. you don't exist." "OR DO WE?" "Neh. -mentally throws a clump of dirt at non-existing figments-"

You don't know how good it is to know that I'm not the only person who has a thought process like that.

I’d like to present a quote I found in a book I recently read called The Art of Racing in the Rain.

“However, I don’t understand why people insist on pitting the concepts of evolution and creation against each other. Why can’t they see that science and spiritualism are one? That bodies evolve and souls evolve and the universe is a fluid place that marries them both in a wonderful package called a human being.”

That's a pretty way of putting it. If it were me, I'd probably ramble about how science just means "a body of knowledge", and science and religion aren't really at odds with each other themselves, although specific theories can be.

Haha, pull a Goosefeather. That’s a great saying.

Yeah. Some people actually do that, you know -- say that hurricanes are direct punishments for sinful lives and crap like that.

Dude. It's a hurricane. If you're the nicest, most pious person in the world, it's not going to guarantee you a peachy life, and an earthquake flattening some guy's house doesn't mean the guy's a lecher and a mass murderer.

And my ever-so-helpful figments answer “because he’s just so loving and lets these things happen.”
Shut up, figments.

We already went over the Eden thing.

Awww. That must be lonely sometimes.

I met a few Christians at Girls State, so'sall good. ^^

….I don’t wanna know.

They just laugh and talk louder than normal is all.
Never seen anyone get really sloshed irl.
I have seen this video, though. Wait until about 0:43

Miscarriages…eh.

Yeah, I wouldn't know either, but the women who have gone through it... I get the impression it's tough stuff. It's one of those things that's hard to imagine if you've never been pregnant, I guess.

This is the part where I usually go “Riiiiiight.”

Reality is a weirdball. o.O Let's stare at it and drag out our sennnntencesssss.

I just find it hard to believe because humans suck so much. Id I were God, I’d love the world, but hate humans and figure out how to get rid of them once and for all, but subtly and still give them a sparing chance to save themselves.

That's the point.

Come to think of it, maybe that’s why he hasn’t stopped global warming.

Anddd I love how you jumped onto a whole different train track.

You have a point. Still. Not sure it’s worth that for all the horrible things that happen to people, especially in the so-called Holy Land.

Yes, free will makes evil possible. Isn't it awful, letting people think for themselves?

And why? Fights about God, half of them, the irony of which is just sickening.

...because no one ever creates conspicuous violence over anything else, no sir-ee.

But yes on the irony thing. I'm thinking it's that warfare mindset.

You see, even if one religion has a law against murder, most people like to make exceptions about stuff like self-defense and protecting your country and such. So all those people have to do is convince themselves that they're defending something.

And you know what? Since you mentioned the Holy Land again, I'd like to point out that if you do a little research, you'll find that both Israelis and Palestinians have some seriously good reasons for thinking that land belongs to them. I think I did mention before that I wrote something like a report on that, yes? I couldn't decide whose argument was better.

But that's a whole different mega-discussion of its own, and I don't know how interested you are in Middle-Eastern conflicts besides saying "violence is baaad".

As for the exploding bit, I find that hard to believe.

Good. >> I won't try to convince you.

[Cloud]

"you know what, you shut up"
"your face should shut up"
"you don't have a face"
"I hate you."
"I hate you more."
"AND WE BOTH HATE YOU!"

Thank you, arguing figments. -.- Although it's my fault really; they're not there unless I want them to be. xD Oh, all the voices I keep in my brain. ;P

This isn't my reply, I just felt like putting this down. ;P

[Cloud]

I realize some of my questions are getting stupid again, so I'll try and put a lid on that. :x

"mmhm. And humans all have... what, something like 99% similar DNA? And yet we're all pretty different."

That one percent counts for a lot.

"...I'm remembering this from almost a year ago when I read a lesbian's "This I Believe" essay about focusing on our similarities instead of our differences, so no precise citations here, sorry. I can probably find the exact statistic with a source if you want.

Also! I was watching this Nova thing about hobbits on PBS the other night. They (the super pro-human-evolution-from-other-primates scientists and all) kept outright stating that the whole story of our evolution from homo erectus (or whatever it's called) has a lot of big gaps in it right now. Dunno if that means anything to you."

xD I do know that, it's one of the reasons I have my slight doubts about some parts of evolution. But then, the whole creation+evolution=people theory has its merits.

"You don't know how good it is to know that I'm not the only person who has a thought process like that."

You're not alooooone~ -sings cheesy song- /shot Haha, well, not always. But yes, sometimes I do think like that. My figments, I am sure, are plotting to destroy me somehow.

"...no we aren't. We don't exist. Right, number 2?"
"What?"
"JUST SAY WE DON'T EXIST."
"I want soda."
"AWRIGHT YOU LITTLE -*insert figment fight*"
"You know what, I hate you soooo much. we don't exist! We don't exist! WELL MAYBE YOU DON'T EXIST YOU UNGRATEFUL LITTLE *censored*"

>> I'm so despised.

"That's a pretty way of putting it. If it were me, I'd probably ramble about how science just means "a body of knowledge", and science and religion aren't really at odds with each other themselves, although specific theories can be."

I agree.

"Yeah. Some people actually do that, you know -- say that hurricanes are direct punishments for sinful lives and crap like that.

Dude. It's a hurricane. If you're the nicest, most pious person in the world, it's not going to guarantee you a peachy life, and an earthquake flattening some guy's house doesn't mean the guy's a lecher and a mass murderer."

Indeedy do.

"We already went over the Eden thing."

I know, but the figments don't seem to care. Because they are stupid. :/

"I met a few Christians at Girls State, so'sall good. ^^"

Yay.

"They just laugh and talk louder than normal is all.
Never seen anyone get really sloshed irl.
I have seen this video, though. Wait until about 0:43"

o.o oh dear.

"Yeah, I wouldn't know either, but the women who have gone through it... I get the impression it's tough stuff. It's one of those things that's hard to imagine if you've never been pregnant, I guess."

Guess so. -shrugs-

" Reality is a weirdball. o.O Let's stare at it and drag out our sennnntencesssss."

xDDDDDD

"That's the point."

..oh. ;P

"Anddd I love how you jumped onto a whole different train track."

_____ is the driver of this train~

Random little song where you can insert your name into the blank. It reminded me of that.

"Yes, free will makes evil possible. Isn't it awful, letting people think for themselves?"

No. Aghffff. I hate this quandary. I also hate my stupid brain of stupidness.

" ...because no one ever creates conspicuous violence over anything else, no sir-ee."

xD I know that, Lady Sarcasm.

" But yes on the irony thing. I'm thinking it's that warfare mindset.

You see, even if one religion has a law against murder, most people like to make exceptions about stuff like self-defense and protecting your country and such. So all those people have to do is convince themselves that they're defending something.

And you know what? Since you mentioned the Holy Land again, I'd like to point out that if you do a little research, you'll find that both Israelis and Palestinians have some seriously good reasons for thinking that land belongs to them. I think I did mention before that I wrote something like a report on that, yes? I couldn't decide whose argument was better.

But that's a whole different mega-discussion of its own, and I don't know how interested you are in Middle-Eastern conflicts besides saying "violence is baaad"."

Luckily I know this from history class, and yes they do. I just wish they wouldn't drag religion into it. LOGICALLY, if they both say God gave them the land and they aren't lying, the logical conclusion is for them to share it. Amazing how some people haven't yet come to that conclusion.

Yes I know there's problems with that. I'm just saying. ;P

I also think the people who want to build those fenced Jewish settlements in Palestinian territory are downright sad/deluded/stupid. It doesn't help anybody.

"Good. >> I won't try to convince you."

xD

[Ten]

"That one percent counts for a lot."
--
inorite? DNA is amazing. o.o I couldn't come up with anything near so complex.


"I hate this quandary."
--
Hate the choices people make, not their ability to make them.


"I know that, Lady Sarcasm."
--
Yeah. >>


"I just wish they wouldn't drag religion into it."
--
Drag....? What do you mean, drag religion into it? Just because it's an issue that involves physical matters does not mean it must exclude theology, in particular when theology is such a big part of it.


"LOGICALLY, if they both say God gave them the land and they aren't lying,"
--
If they both say God gave them the land, then even if they both believe it with all their hearts, they can still believe the others are wrong.

It's more complicated than a few paragraphs in a standardized school text book.


Hey, is that everything for the general Abrahamic theology? o.o Nothing more to discuss on that? hm. So if you want me to talk you about why it's so hard for them to "just get along", I'm open to continuing this thread on that topic. I don't know where I saved my essay outline, but I can still remember and research some of it.

[Cloud]

"inorite? DNA is amazing. o.o I couldn't come up with anything near so complex."

<3 DNA=win. Just because it's so cool. And well, we wouldn't be here without it.

"Hate the choices people make, not their ability to make them."

Good point. o3o

"Drag....? What do you mean, drag religion into it? Just because it's an issue that involves physical matters does not mean it must exclude theology, in particular when theology is such a big part of it"

Well...I know theology is an important part of it, I just wish it wasn't because it only makes people argue more and adds an extra element to compromise when there already so many hard ones to work out.

" If they both say God gave them the land, then even if they both believe it with all their hearts, they can still believe the others are wrong.

It's more complicated than a few paragraphs in a standardized school text book.


Hey, is that everything for the general Abrahamic theology? o.o Nothing more to discuss on that? hm. So if you want me to talk you about why it's so hard for them to "just get along", I'm open to continuing this thread on that topic. I don't know where I saved my essay outline, but I can still remember and research some of it."

Won't argue with that. xD My history teacher actually showed us this awesome documentary about it involving six kids who live only about 20 minutes away from each other in Israel, but their lives are completely different.

And uh...lemme see if I can find a copy of the bible somewhere. You know, from now on I'll just come with all my religious questions to you. ;P You're a lot more thorough and less repetitive than the adults at my church. I mean, it's a nice place, but it's essentially the same stuff over and over again.

And sure, we can do that. ;P If you're interested, the documentary is called Promises.

[Ten]

"Well...I know theology is an important part of it, I just wish it wasn't because it only makes people argue more"
--
uh, no. That's not how it works.


"adds an extra element"
--
o.o Extra? For the Jews, it's the original element. The other stuff is extra.


"And uh...lemme see if I can find a copy of the bible somewhere."
--
The internet is a convenient place.


"You know, from now on I'll just come with all my religious questions to you."
--
That's a lot of pressure. o.o


"You're a lot more thorough and less repetitive than the adults at my church. I mean, it's a nice place, but it's essentially the same stuff over and over again."
--
Yeah, most churches use the script found in-- Wait, you have a church? Are you talking about a UU church? If so, I don't know how you even found anyone willing to discuss these religions (besides stuff like "Women shouldn't have to wear burqas" and "Christians shouldn't harass gays" and "We don't need 'under God' in the pledge of allegiance").


"If you're interested, the documentary is called Promises."
--
/googles

[Rebecca]

{Christians shouldn't harass gays"}

I thought only the Catholic Church was against gays. Who else is?
/is Catholic.

[Ten]

Jun 30, 2010 9:15:25 GMT -5 Rebecca said:

{Christians shouldn't harass gays"}

I thought only the Catholic Church was against gays. Who else is?
/is Catholic.

Interesting question, Rebecca. Not the Episcopalians, for sure (they're like UU-ers who have crosses in their churches >>).

What do you mean by "against gays", though? Against them being public about it? Against them doing anything gay? Against them being able to legally marry? Against them teaching children? Against them entering the military? Against them existing? I ask these questions because, even though it may seem as though someone who's against one of those things would be against them all, there are different viewpoints in between "OMG GAY POW-WAHH!" and "OMG YOU GOIN' TA HAYY-ELL!"

Anyway, I'm thinking there are some Baptist and Fundamentalist sects (?) who have some KKK-level of hate for gays, if that's what you mean.

[Rebecca]

{Interesting question, Rebecca. Not the Episcopalians, for sure (they're like UU-ers who have crosses in their churches >>).

What do you mean by "against gays", though? Against them being public about it? Against them doing anything gay? Against them being able to legally marry? Against them teaching children? Against them entering the military? Against them existing? I ask these questions because, even though it may seem as though someone who's against one of those things would be against them all, there are different viewpoints in between "OMG GAY POW-WAHH!" and "OMG YOU GOIN' TA HAYY-ELL!"

Anyway, I'm thinking there are some Baptist and Fundamentalist sects (?) who have some KKK-level of hate for gays, if that's what you mean.}

Just for the recond, I am not a gay-hater.
By against gay, I mean that they have at least one problem with them, whether it be gay-marriage, going into the military, teaching, etc.
Or even hating their guts just for liking someone from the same gender.

Ten fixed your little coding error, 's all. (: