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Post by Ten on Apr 29, 2010 17:43:02 GMT -5
Many people donate to charities already, they don't need the government to tell them to. Point. "A little more taxes to pay in order to save someone's life isn't a big deal for me." -- How are you figuring it would be "a little"? Not having to pay taxes at this age, they don't frighten me, but I'm wondering how far you would like this government funding to go. "If they can't afford it, should they die, or have to spend the rest of their life paying off debt?" -- If every single individual and organization is snotty enough to turn down finding help for them, then yeah. Why should it be the government's responsibility? It's in charge of enabling prevention, not paying for cures. "Because paying a little bit more on your taxes could've prevented it." -- The government could prevent a lot of things. If they kept you strapped to a bed for the rest of your life, they could you prevent you falling and scraping your knee ever again. But that's an extreme example of prevention and would be unreasonable. Why is it reasonable to have the government pay for all medical expenses? "Because of unemployment. If unemployment rates are high, some people are going to be jobless even if they're perfectly fine." -- Like in the Great Depression? mm. That's when welfare was created, yes? Those people had valid reasons for applying for welfare. There are some who do so without valid reasons. "It isn't?" -- I wasn't aware of this for a long time, but abortion goes back to ancient Egyptians and Romans. They had different methods, of course, but it's still the same idea: a mother killing her unborn child. However, it wasn't an issue in America until the... 90's? |
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Post by Cloud on Apr 29, 2010 19:38:26 GMT -5
I have no idea, but judging from The Cider House Rules, it was an issue long before that, assuming the author did his research, and I think he did.
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Post by duckyaisha on Apr 30, 2010 5:57:09 GMT -5
"How are you figuring it would be "a little"?
Not having to pay taxes at this age, they don't frighten me, but I'm wondering how far you would like this government funding to go."
There's 300 million people in this country, we all don't have to pay a lot because the combined amount of even a little bit of extra money would be enough. And we aren't paying for everyone, only those who can't afford treatment or insurance.
"If every single individual and organization is snotty enough to turn down finding help for them, then yeah. Why should it be the government's responsibility? It's in charge of enabling prevention, not paying for cures."
I don't understand. You think it's wrong to abort babies, but right to let these people die because they can't pay for it? That doesn't make any sense. What's the difference between a sick, dying person and a baby born to a mother that doesn't want it? Why does one get to live and the other gets to die?
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Post by Ten on Apr 30, 2010 17:54:22 GMT -5
"There's 300 million people in this country, we all don't have to pay a lot because the combined amount of even a little bit of extra money would be enough."
--
Have you done the math on this? /hasn't either
"And we aren't paying for everyone, only those who can't afford treatment or insurance."
--
Who's not going to want to claim that?
"You think it's wrong to abort babies, but right to let these people die because they can't pay for it?"
--
It's the difference between killing someone and not paying for someone else's medicine. You can argue that not paying for that medicine results in their death and therefore is wrong, too, and you might be able to sway me into believing that yet, but it's still different from goring someone to death.
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Post by duckyaisha on May 2, 2010 13:10:42 GMT -5
"Have you done the math on this? /hasn't either"
No, but I will.
If we each paid-
1 cent more- $3,000,000
5 cents more- $15,000,000
10 cents more- $30,000,000
25 cents more- $75,000,000
50 cents more- $150,000,000
1 dollar more- $300,000,000
And since there were 46 million uninsured Americans before reform, and only a few will require expensive treatment, you'd probably only have to pay an extra dollar or less on your taxes.
"Who's not going to want to claim that?"
Everyone will want to, but only certain people can.
"It's the difference between killing someone and not paying for someone else's medicine. You can argue that not paying for that medicine results in their death and therefore is wrong, too, and you might be able to sway me into believing that yet, but it's still different from goring someone to death."
I've heard people say that hospitals have to treat everyone and I've heard people say that they don't have to treat you if you don't have insurance or can't afford it. Maybe different hospitals have different policies, I don't know.
If it were true that hospitals don't have to help the uninsured or the poor, those with deadly diseases that could be cured would die. For example, people with curable cancers.
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Post by Ten on May 2, 2010 15:04:59 GMT -5
"And since there were 46 million uninsured Americans before reform, and only a few will require expensive treatment,"
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I thought we were talking government health insurance, not just paying for any expensive treatments. Doesn't health insurance cost a few hundred bucks a month?
"but only certain people can."
--
How do you propose they would ensure that?
"I've heard people say that hospitals have to treat everyone and I've heard people say that they don't have to treat you if you don't have insurance or can't afford it. Maybe different hospitals have different policies, I don't know."
--
huh.
"If it were true that hospitals don't have to help the uninsured or the poor, those with deadly diseases that could be cured would die."
--
I'm sure they'd have to do something about tuberculosis.
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Post by Cloud on May 28, 2010 6:20:17 GMT -5
-prods thread-
Mm, I bet you're all thinking something along the lines of "Don't be dumb, Cloud, remember how idiotic you got last time?" I'm aware of that, and promise not to be quite so stupid. But I do have some (hopefully more legitimate) questions.
I realized that whenever I think about the whole concept of God and whenever (rarely) I come close to thinking "What the heck maybe it's all possible" I remember "oh look, it's a hole. And another hole. And another. What's that? Oh, a hole."
I figured out that my main problems are:
1. Science.
2. Other religions.
3. Why didn't God do ____________?
4. Some random other stuff.
Science, obviously, is the biggest one, which is why I put it first. The obvious hole being evolution or rather the lack of it in religion. Making people out of mud? Uh, no.
And of course there's the problem of me finding it hard to believe in anything without solid proof. I mean, I'VE sure as heck never seen a miracle or an angel or someone come back to life.
Or anything that suggests any sort of hard evidence. Well, besides Ten. But she's special in that she's about the ONLY person who has ever made me think "well, maybe". Everyone else is just not convincing at all, particularly the girls at my school. But then, she's more like a real Christian than several Christians are. Especially the crazy people on TV I've heard about.
Anyways, moving on. Next hole: Other religions.
What I mean by that is that they're another reason why I hesitate to put faith in just one idea of something. I mean, who am I to say that they're all idiots and just certain people are right?
It'd feel like spitting on every other religion and saying "nah nah, I'm right and your religion sucks." Obviously I do not want to feel like I'm saying that.
When I was little, I thought the Greek gods were real because they had the coolest stories. I was a silly little child. ;P Or am, not really sure I've grown up yet.
As for "Why didn't God do ________?" well my main problem is the Holocaust. MILLIONS of his followers were dying/being tortured. What did he do? Absolutely nothing I can tell. Yeah, real gratuity there. It was PEOPLE who stopped the Holocaust, unless I'm badly mistaken.
-hugs Ten for putting up with her-
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Post by Ten on May 31, 2010 9:31:29 GMT -5
Ah, so she returns.
"Science, obviously, is the biggest one, which is why I put it first."
--
You'll have to give me more than "science" and "evolution" (which I'll cover next) as your reasons, because those aren't reasons, they're words, and I can't infer all of what you mean, because there's a whole lot of science that's not controversial, like the places/positions of the internal organs. So what about science? Dinosaurs?
"The obvious hole being evolution or rather the lack of it in religion. Making people out of mud? Uh, no."
--
You might be meaning for those sentences to all go together, but I'll treat them as two separate parts.
I'm assuming the "lack of evolution" (in religion? uh... I think you mean in the exact wording of the Bible/Torah/Koran/any others you have in mind?) is not what you have a problem with, because there are plenty of things they don't go into, don't mention, and don't describe, and the non-inclusion doesn't mean it doesn't happen or that it can't happen or anything. Therefore, are you saying the creation stories can't be compatible with the theory of evolution?
About people being made from mud -- why not? Of course clipped fingernails, severed limbs, and dead bodies don't crumble into dirt right off the bat, but they do get around to it.
"I mean, I'VE sure as heck never seen a miracle or an angel or someone come back to life."
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Neither have I. :3 Unless you count miracles like God sending cloud cover during the hottest parts of the ride on Saturday.
"Well, besides Ten. But she's special in that she's about the ONLY person who has ever made me think 'well, maybe'."
--
Fraggin' eyes gettin' all fraggin' watery.
"But then, she's more like a real Christian than several Christians are."
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I sure hope so.
"What I mean by that is that they're another reason why I hesitate to put faith in just one idea of something."
--
You're afraid of holding one opinion because there are other opinions in opposition to it. That's kind of how I am about some political issues and such. I'm just like, "I don't know. D: Don't ask me about it." But that's about worldly things. The possibility of eternal souls has a slight degree more of importance, you know?
"I mean, who am I to say that they're all idiots and just certain people are right?"
--
Well, since you asked, you're Cloud, and you already do that about some things. However! Saying someone's beliefs are wrong does not require calling them an idiot (tough concept for some folks, I've discovered) and in fact, there a bit where Jesus is telling folks that if you call anyone an idiot, you might be drifting off in the wrong direction, if you know what I mean. It's not so much that it's The Eleventh Commandment as it is an obvious indication that you're not trying to imitate Jesus if you're insulting people like that -- notice I add "like that". ;3
"It'd feel like spitting on every other religion and saying 'nah nah, I'm right and your religion sucks.' "
--
If you're not affiliating yourself with any of them, then you're already doing that to all of them instead of all but one. Now I know you're not that nasty about it, but then being religious doesn't have to make you act nasty to anyone either, as you know. Anyway, not siding with anyone doesn't ingratiate you with any of them. In a theological sense, I feel much closer to Jews and Muslims than I do with agnostics, and even though Islam doesn't have everything down pat, I'd rather someone become a devout Muslim than think themselves nonreligious.
Anyway! Think of it this way: it's better to guess on a multiple choice test than to leave everything blank. x)
"When I was little, I thought the Greek gods were real because they had the coolest stories."
--
I used to be interested in those stories too until I realized what ridiculous soap operas they were. It's like Warriors with less fur and more inter-species rape.
"...well my main problem is the Holocaust."
--
Just the Holocaust? You realize that was not the only ever attempt at genocide on the Earth, yes? You realize that was not the only ever time a man has ordered the deaths of millions, yes? You realize cruelty happens every day across the world, even if it's not in such a conspicuous concentration, yes? I'm assuming you mean your problem is the Holocaust and everything like it.
"What did he do? Absolutely nothing I can tell."
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That "I can tell"? Well there's your problem.
Anyway, what were you expect him to do? Send Elijah down in a flaming chariot and scoop everyone up? Humans have had free will for a while now, and when they abuse it, it hurts themselves and the people around them -- old news.
So why didn't God give people a chance at a safe, comfy, perfect life? He did, and they wrecked it, so He's like, fine, be that way, no more Garden of Eden for you. And then He blocked the entrance with a freaky four-faced angel and a flying, flaming sword.
"It was PEOPLE who stopped the Holocaust, unless I'm badly mistaken."
--
Because God has never worked through people before. -shifty eyes-
-hugs Cloud for putting up with her-
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Post by Cloud on Jun 1, 2010 20:41:16 GMT -5
"You'll have to give me more than "science" and "evolution" (which I'll cover next) as your reasons, because those aren't reasons, they're words, and I can't infer all of what you mean, because there's a whole lot of science that's not controversial, like the places/positions of the internal organs. So what about science? Dinosaurs?"
Good point about the controversy. Dinosaurs, yes, but also...I just find it difficult to believe we were made from mud. Call me close-minded, but it doesn't click for me. Yes, I know religion gets around that by saying "And God made it life" but ehh...I go "and physics did not exist". Also, all the evidence out there that we evolved from neanderthals and such.
"You might be meaning for those sentences to all go together, but I'll treat them as two separate parts.
I'm assuming the "lack of evolution" (in religion? uh... I think you mean in the exact wording of the Bible/Torah/Koran/any others you have in mind?) is not what you have a problem with, because there are plenty of things they don't go into, don't mention, and don't describe, and the non-inclusion doesn't mean it doesn't happen or that it can't happen or anything. Therefore, are you saying the creation stories can't be compatible with the theory of evolution?
About people being made from mud -- why not? Of course clipped fingernails, severed limbs, and dead bodies don't crumble into dirt right off the bat, but they do get around to it."
I've just never really seen them work together, is all. Although now that you mention it I suppose that's possible, religion and evolution existing together. Though it doesn't fit with every creation story that I've ever read.
Fair point about decomposition. I do believe humans are connected to earth/dirt/mud/whatever you want to call it somehow, but I doubt we were MADE from it.
"Neither have I. :3 Unless you count miracles like God sending cloud cover during the hottest parts of the ride on Saturday."
I call that the natural course of events, but point taken seriously. I'd like to mention a quote I found: "If you understand it, it isn't God." -St. Augustine. One of the smartest things I've ever heard. If there is a God, I sure don't understand him/her/it/whatever.
"Fraggin' eyes gettin' all fraggin' watery."
-offers tissue-
"I sure hope so."
:3 You are.
"You're afraid of holding one opinion because there are other opinions in opposition to it. That's kind of how I am about some political issues and such. I'm just like, "I don't know. D: Don't ask me about it." But that's about worldly things. The possibility of eternal souls has a slight degree more of importance, you know?"
Agree with that.
"Well, since you asked, you're Cloud, and you already do that about some things. However! Saying someone's beliefs are wrong does not require calling them an idiot (tough concept for some folks, I've discovered) and in fact, there a bit where Jesus is telling folks that if you call anyone an idiot, you might be drifting off in the wrong direction, if you know what I mean. It's not so much that it's The Eleventh Commandment as it is an obvious indication that you're not trying to imitate Jesus if you're insulting people like that -- notice I add "like that". ;3"
I suppose it's somewhat my paranoia of ever being shot by some extremist. And I'll have to take your word for it, not knowing as much about that as you do. ;P
"If you're not affiliating yourself with any of them, then you're already doing that to all of them instead of all but one. Now I know you're not that nasty about it, but then being religious doesn't have to make you act nasty to anyone either, as you know. Anyway, not siding with anyone doesn't ingratiate you with any of them. In a theological sense, I feel much closer to Jews and Muslims than I do with agnostics, and even though Islam doesn't have everything down pat, I'd rather someone become a devout Muslim than think themselves nonreligious.
Anyway! Think of it this way: it's better to guess on a multiple choice test than to leave everything blank. x)"
Erm, okay. D: Do you feel far away from your fellow Starless people? 'Cause at least three of us are, you know...o////o And there's me being raised in my religion-that's-not-really-a-religion. (Yes, I have decided you're right on that.) I doubt I'll ever call it my religion now, because that wouldn't be correct, but it was still a big part of how I grew up.
"I used to be interested in those stories too until I realized what ridiculous soap operas they were. It's like Warriors with less fur and more inter-species rape."
I made a similar discovery early in sixth grade. xD
"Just the Holocaust? You realize that was not the only ever attempt at genocide on the Earth, yes? You realize that was not the only ever time a man has ordered the deaths of millions, yes? You realize cruelty happens every day across the world, even if it's not in such a conspicuous concentration, yes? I'm assuming you mean your problem is the Holocaust and everything like it."
I do know all that. ;____________; The holocaust was particularly horrible, though. Not to say that all the others weren't, but that one stands out for me. But yes, that and things like it. My thoughts on it are essentially: "Why would a loving God let things like that happen? Well why should he have to clean up everything and interfere all the time? But we're his children, right? True, but we were made to be able to solve our own problems. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Right. Because we do such a good job of it. Not. Would God want to save a race this sucky? Maybe he's just waiting for us all to die so he can start again. Well that's depressing."
And so on. ;P
"That "I can tell"? Well there's your problem.
Anyway, what were you expect him to do? Send Elijah down in a flaming chariot and scoop everyone up? Humans have had free will for a while now, and when they abuse it, it hurts themselves and the people around them -- old news.
So why didn't God give people a chance at a safe, comfy, perfect life? He did, and they wrecked it, so He's like, fine, be that way, no more Garden of Eden for you. And then He blocked the entrance with a freaky four-faced angel and a flying, flaming sword."
XDDDDDDDD See, this is one reason why I like religion coming from you. It always sounds funnier and easier to listen to.
I always wonder how if God is so perfect and wonderful, why were his creations flawed ? I provide myself with varying answers, but I still ask.
"Because God has never worked through people before. -shifty eyes-"
xD Fair point. I can't disprove that.
"-hugs Cloud for putting up with her-"
You're the logical, calm, fluffy one. You're very easy to put up with; in fact I enjoy talking to you. ;P
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Post by Ten on Jun 1, 2010 22:46:16 GMT -5
I just find it difficult to believe we were made from mud. Call me close-minded, but it doesn't click for me. Yes, I know religion gets around that by saying "And God made it life" but ehh...I go "and physics did not exist". It doesn't matter if physics existed. What kind of wussy god wouldn't be able to control matter of his exclusive creation? Lay it on me. So. A few things. The creation stories are old (even older than I am! ...yeah I'm to young to be making those jokes). So they've had... what... a few millennia to get a little screwy? Still, I gotta believe that somehow a little bit of the real story is at the core of it all, and details aren't a big deal to me (I know others don't feel the same). About dinos -- simple; the folks writing those stories down didn't know about dinos and just left them out (can you blame them? Humans never saw real dinos). To be technical, the theory of evolution (the main/actual/original one) doesn't say "and then humans evolved from other primates". It just says that species adapt over time. It's more than feasible for God to have created a fish and then for that fish to have evolved. And evolution says where changes in features come from, but it doesn't say how life originated, so they mesh well in those regards. From dust you were created, and into dust you shall return.I love it when church is morbid.  I do try to be cautious about taking anything as a sign. I don't want to pull a Goosefeather (seriously, that'd be moronic). However, when those little things come along, I like to thank God because, even when it's natural course of events, He set those events in motion. I appreciate you saying that. Extremists shoot first and verify your views after. I recommend a bulletproof vest. Yes and no. I probably chatter on Starless more than I do in real life, and I do all my role playing here, so y'all are important to me. As far as theology goes, yeah, we're not near each other, but I'm so far off from most people anyway that it's not strange to me and by comparison it's not much more of a distance. Why thank you. I know what you mean. It's still an integral part of you, kind of like equestrian endurance rides and Christmas parties with loud, drunk adults are for me. What if, while painting up reality, He chose not to include unimaginable, even worse things? But yeah that's one of those tough questions that people are always asking after every war, hurricane, and miscarriage. Because He loves us, Cloud. Crap. Watery eyes are back. -beats away with a hammer- >  Anyway, remember how we were talking about Christian music on skype? I feel guilty saying that the ones I don't care for tend to be the ones that are just keep saying, in essence, "I love God! A lot!" The songs that are the most powerful for me are the ones that are the most beautiful in describing how He loves us, because that makes me want to love Him back. Yeah, humans fail. That's why it's so epic that anyone, much less a god, would love them. Aw, shucks. hm. Well, it's pretty hard to be as good as God. I'm thinking it's not so much a lack of skill on His part as it is the result of us having free will. If everyone always made the right choices, that wouldn't really be free will since that's more or less the same as being programmed to always make the right choices -- and yet, some of us loving Him back wouldn't mean anything to Him if we didn't have free will. And I love talking to you. You actually listen to me. ...and it's funny that you call me calm. x) I often spazz or do what my sister calls "exploding". |
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